Session Start: Thu Feb 12 10:25:36 1998
*** Now talking in #mtf
*** fu-berlin.de sets mode: +o Klaus
<Klaus> logging is on
<Klaus> network is up
<Klaus> waiting for the MTF folks...
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<msa> Ahha!
<Klaus> hi. The meeting just started. we report later.
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<Klaus> hi guillaume. 
<ga> hi Klaus
<Klaus> we are in difficult discussuion and come back later 
<Klaus> 17:00 ...
<ga> ok
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Session Close: Thu Feb 12 16:59:22 1998

Session Start: Thu Feb 12 16:59:43 1998
*** Now talking in #mtf
*** fu-berlin.de sets mode: +o Klaus
<Klaus> Hello?
<Klaus> Well, no one really here, right?
<Klaus> But may be for the log. I will say some words in a 
  second..
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#mtf
<Klaus> Ha.
<Klaus> At least one...
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#mtf
<Emmanuel> HI all
<Klaus> :_)
<Klaus> Fols, I have very bad performance
<Klaus> sorry.
<Guillaume> Yes, it seems we are not only one
<Emmanuel> Personnaly, I was unable to join mtf channel at 
   17/00
<Guillaume> So do I
<Klaus> I will say some words about the situation here.
<Klaus> We are 8 folks.
<Klaus> most of the time was devoted to the 
  discussion of the content Available event
<Klaus> We are not going through the list of 
  issues from the MUG.
<Klaus> Actually, we are at item 17.
<Klaus> All the complicated issues are delayed 
  for tomorrow.
<Klaus> We already can see that the two day are 
  NOT sufficient.
<Emmanuel> What are the results of the discussion about 
   ContentAvailable
<Klaus> EB, there is no final decision. 
<Klaus> EB, i am copying in a second some conclusion.
<Klaus> We have no final result now.
<Klaus> 1) setData will result in a contentAvailableEvent
<Klaus> 2) There is no distinction between internal and external 
  content 
<Klaus> 3) After a setData action it is not guaranteed that the 
  content is 
<Klaus>             available or presented
<Klaus> not really clear: ContentAvailable event is generated 
  when the 
<Klaus>             content is completly available. 
<Klaus> not really clear: The contentAvailable event can be 
  generated after 
<Klaus>             the isRunning event. 
<Klaus> As a matter of fact, the whole event model was under 
  discussion.
<Klaus> But we have to see that we can not do real changes.
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<Klaus> The last two "not really Clear" issues  will be discussed 
  tonight.
<Emmanuel> OK, when you speak about item 17, it is item 17 of 
   further issues ?
<Klaus> the others can not join the chat, since they are working 
  ...
<Klaus> EB, what does that mean?
<Emmanuel> You said : we are at item 17 ? item 17 of what ?
<Klaus> Oh.
<Klaus> this is the MTF list
<Klaus> we make that available on the web. 
<Klaus> we have 57 identified issues from the MTF WWW site.
<Klaus> I check in a second if this is aleary online.  stay tuned...
<Emmanuel> Yes, is it the newSinceSydney document or what is 
   the URL ?
<Guillaume> KH, Yes but there are two lists of issues: 1 from 
   Sydney & the other
<Klaus> That is true.
<Klaus> We have unified the lists
<Klaus> I have just seen that the WWW version is not unified
<Klaus> sorry.
<Klaus> We make the list available in 15 minutes on the wWW
<Guillaume> KH, numbering starts from Sydney?
<Klaus> GA, no.
<Emmanuel> OK, can you post the new unified version tonight
<Klaus> EB: YES.
<Klaus> I am not sure if we can manage to have the results 
  available as well.
<Klaus> It is pretty much to do in parallel. 
<Klaus> Actuall, I am the only one in the chat since the others 
  continue to resolve the simple things.
<Klaus> The major issues are delayed for tomorrow.
<Klaus> ;-(
<Klaus> Just the participants:
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<Klaus> Guido, Andy, andreas, Joe
<Klaus> myself, Christian Gran, Rene Stolp (both from FOKUS)
<Klaus> and another one from TU-Berlin
<Klaus> The discussion is really on high level.
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#mtf
<Klaus> Evenryone is very aware of the problems. 
<Emmanuel> I'm back again, I was exited by the server
<Emmanuel> I check the log
<Klaus> But I fear the CHAT is not as good as I expected due to 
  the LAG.
<Klaus> Sorry for that.
<rich> Hello everyone. This is Richard from Philips. Could 
   someone bring me up to date please?
<Klaus> My proposal would be that I finsh the chat to prepare the 
  result doc
<Klaus> Please visit for that the MTF in the MUG.
<Klaus> it is http://www.fokus.gmd.de/ovma/mug/mtf/****
<Klaus> the *** will be something like "results.html".
<Klaus> Is that ok for you?
<Klaus> BTW, hello Richard!
<Emmanuel> OK for me
<Guillaume> KH, so we will not take part in the discussion today?
<Emmanuel> it seems there no need to continue if KH is the only 
   one on IRC
<Klaus> Seems to be that the chat does not work as good as I 
  expected. What do you think?
<Klaus> One of the reasons is of course the workload here...
<Emmanuel> That's true, it worked better when we tried on 
   Tuesday
<Klaus> It does, that is right,
<Klaus> we have a second session tomorrow morning. May be 
  that is better.
<Emmanuel> Yes, we will be able to discuss positions in your 
   results document
<Klaus> So, folks, I will leave you now, and make the docs 
  available. Please look at the URL I have posted in 10 Minutes.
<Klaus> I announce the availability here again (for the log)
<Emmanuel> Thanks and see you tomorrow
<rich> OK. Thanks.
<Klaus> I am now off...
<Guillaume> OK, bye
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<Klaus> OK, there is now a HTML doc RESULTS... on the WWW. 
  This is only for the very first issues.
<Klaus> I have to catch up what the others have done until now.
<Klaus> Andreas will put to the WWW the WORD doc with the 
  actual numbering of the issues.
<Klaus> It is copy and paste version of the two MTF Issue lists.
<Klaus> I am sorry that the chat did not work as good as 
  expected. 
<Klaus> That is definitely related to the hot ongoing discussion 
  here in Berlin.
<Klaus> There is simply not time to propagate intermediate 
  results.
<Klaus> But the mood is quite good. 
<Klaus> No one is hurt until now. :-)
<Klaus> I want to thanks those of you who have joined the IRC... 
  Have been at least 5 persons.
<Klaus> not too bad!
<Klaus> Ok, word Doc will be available before 20:00 hours. 
<Klaus> I am now joining the discussion here and catch up with 
  the results.
<Klaus> bye.
Session Close: Thu Feb 12 17:38:47 1998

Session Start: Fri Feb 13 08:58:21 1998
*** Now talking in #mtf
<Klaus> good morning...
<Klaus> for some reason, our network 
  connection here in the meeting room is not 
  better than the day before.
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<Klaus> Ok, some of the MTF folks are already 
  here. Andy has had a very good night, now he is 
  full of ideas to get things solved.
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t.fr) has joined #mtf
<Emmanuel> Hi Klaus
<Klaus> Hi.
<Klaus> The folks are coming in...
<Emmanuel> I had problem to connect one more 
   time this morning
<Klaus> Andy and Guido and Rene are 
  discussing already the contentAvailable event.
<Emmanuel> I don't know where it came from
<Klaus> That was in various issues.
<Klaus> it is also an issue for the Teletext 
  application type
<Emmanuel> OK you are still discussing about 
   the way the event is handled (asynch or synch)
<Klaus> yes. 
<Klaus> it is asynchronous, but the relation to 
  available is not clear.
<Klaus> It is also related to the preload.
<Klaus> But the folks think they have a solution.
<Klaus> I did not follow that talk in the last 
  moments.
<Emmanuel> Yes, I think it's a shame we can't 
   preload an ingredient without content
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<Awed> Hi
<Awed> Sorry change my name now..
<Klaus> Andy says that some Notes: are 
  confusing.
<Emmanuel> which ones
<Klaus> Hello  Awed!
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<Klaus> :-)
*** Y is now known as Y_Dewa
<Klaus> Mr. Dewa, i suppose...
<Y_Dewa> Hello Klaus, long time no seen
<Y_Dewa> =)
<Klaus> EB: I have no real clue which Notes are a 
  problem.. I have to listen a bit more.
<Klaus> Andreas is yust coming in!
<Klaus> The TU folks are coming in.
<Klaus> We are nearly complete.
<Klaus> Andreas will join the IRC in a minute.
<Klaus> may be, he has a better speed with the 
  IRC.
<Emmanuel> KH, I see your mh1073.doc on the 
   mtf site, is it a word97 document ?
<Y_Dewa> I tried access this channel yesterday
<Y_Dewa> but I sleeped... 
<Klaus> EB: Yes, i think so. You need Win95?
<Klaus> Dewa: We have 9:15 in the morning 
  here...
<Emmanuel> Yes, I would prefer word7 win95
<Klaus> You should be tiredd
<Y_Dewa> KH: Now it's 17:16 =)
<Klaus> EB, i do the conversion after the chat.
<Emmanuel> Anyway, I think the issues are listed 
   in the same order as in the TOC, aren't they ?
<Klaus> But I still have to catch up with the latest 
  results.
<Klaus> EB: The list is the same order.
<Emmanuel> OK, no problem that way
<Klaus> Ok, the folks are now talking how the 
  app can figure out when the content is really 
  displayed.
<Y_Dewa> Result of yesterday discussion 
   already put into web pages?
<Klaus> Shall we cont the Content Available 
  events?
<Emmanuel> YD: Yes there are some doc on the 
   mug/mtf site
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#MTF
<Y_Dewa> Ok
<Emmanuel> Hi Andreas
<Andreas> mornings
<Y_Dewa> hello Andreas
<Andreas> hi Yoshiharu + Emmanuel!
<Y_Dewa> good evening.. 
<Klaus> Dewa: Yes, but I will produce a new 
  version.
<Klaus> Please visit the MTF WWW site.
<Y_Dewa> KH: Ok Anyway I read them now
<Klaus> I will now edit the doc. I come back in 10 
  Minutes.
<Emmanuel> KH: When will you put the new 
   version ?
<Andreas> just a second i have to comment on 
   something
<Emmanuel> Hey, is there still someone here ?
<Emmanuel> Could we eventually participate to 
   any discussion ?
<Y_Dewa> Yep
<Y_Dewa> I don't know.. :)
<Emmanuel> I think this IRC meeting would be 
   useful if we could give our opinion on some 
   difficult points
<Y_Dewa> I'd like to know who attends this 
   meetings.
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<Y_Dewa> I agree with you
<Emmanuel> YD: The 8 participants are listed in 
   the results docs
<Emmanuel> Hi, Guillaume
<Y_Dewa> Hi
<Guillaume> EB, Hi
<Emmanuel> YD, There is Andy Maxfield (Philips) 
   and Guido Grassel form Nokia
<Y_Dewa> Nice meet you, Guillaume
<Emmanuel> YD, There are also 2 persons from 
   TU Berlin
<Y_Dewa> it feels good attendance
<Emmanuel> YD: and 4 people from GMD
<Guillaume> YD, nice to meet you too
<Klaus> Hi folks.
<Andreas> hi Guillaume
<Klaus> I have just uploaded the results from 
  yesterday
<Klaus> However, it is VERY short.
<Guillaume> KH, yes and I have just downloaded 
   them
<Klaus> There is only "ok" or "delayed" for the 
  issues.
<Guillaume> BTW, Hi Andreas
<Klaus> these are the editors instructions :-)
<Klaus> The discussion in the moment (and 
  nearly consensus) is to remove the Note 1 in 
  Activation of root.
<Emmanuel> FYI, the doc is MTF%20minutes%20
   980212.html
<Klaus> I come with details later. 
<Y_Dewa> EB, thx for your info.
<Klaus> Soffy for the naming.
<Klaus> I have a very slow network access to our 
  fileserver.
<Klaus> I guess my notebook is broken :-(
<Guillaume> Talking about the ContentAvailable 
   event, it seems it's still an open issue?
<Klaus> Folks, can you define the idea behind the 
  Note 1 in Root:activation?
<Klaus> there is now consensus here to remove 
  that, since it is confusing.
<Klaus> It is not wrong, but potentially 
  missleading.
<Emmanuel> Yes, the bitmap could be displayed 
   only when its content will be available
<Emmanuel> I think this note comes too early in the document
<Emmanuel> It is rather related to the activation as described in 
   subclasses
<Klaus> You are now on the beamer... I am off for 5 minutes to 
  listen to Guido.
<Emmanuel> GA, YD, any opinion on this issue ?
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<Y_Dewa> This propose is useful, but it reduce lengthy only?
<Y_Dewa> It might be derive some inconsistence of engine, IMHO
<Emmanuel> YD, What's the aim of the note in your opinion ?
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<Guillaume> YD, this note may be useful in that it says that the 
   bitmap is still displayed after the action is completed
<Klaus> Folks, we are about to clarify the meaning of 
  "isRunning" .
<Klaus> GA: The behaviour is no "action" :-)
<Klaus> But the question here is if the NOTE1 might confuse:
<Guillaume> KH, right! I should say "behaviour"
<Klaus> It could mean that the rendering contiunues.
<Klaus> which we want to clarify.
<Klaus> We have a good idea now without changing the text. We 
  are now trying to
<Klaus> solve the impact on setData.
<Klaus> I come back later.
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<Y_Dewa> It seems network traffic is heavy..
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#mtf
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<Y_Dewa> Hi Jon
<Y_Dewa> Nice meet you again!
<JonPiesin> Hello again. I thought I'd drop in and see if irc 
   worked
<JonPiesin> any better with all the Americans asleep and 
   hopefully fewer
<JonPiesin> delays than last night. 
<JonPiesin> Is anybody here ?
<Y_Dewa> yep
<Y_Dewa> It seems KH and AK are AFK
<Andreas> Hi Jon
<Andreas> We are in the process of formulating some notes
<Klaus> Ok, folks. We have produced some text.
<Klaus> I can post it here, if you want.
<Klaus> BTW, what does AFK mean???
<Y_Dewa> away from keyboard... sorry :)
<Klaus> Ok, I copy the text now. these are four statements. 
<Klaus> 1) Remove NOTE1 of Activation behaviour of the Root 
  Class (8.3)
<Klaus> 2) Add a definition of "Presented" to chapter 3
<Klaus>             Definition: "Presented" means that the 
  presentable is completely rendered 
<Klaus>             on the screen. In case of streams the meaning of 
  "completly rendered" is 
<Klaus>             that the presentation has been started.
<Klaus> 3) Add a note at isRunning of GroupClass (9.3)
<Klaus>             Note: After the IsRunningEvent all Presentables 
  which have the 
<Klaus>             InitiallyActive Attribute set to true are presented. 
  The content of other 
<Klaus>             Ingredients which have the initially Active 
  attribute set to true are available.
<Klaus> 4) Add a clarification for Activation of Ingredients by a 
  note at 12.3/Activation (new 
<Klaus>       clause, but empty):
<Klaus>             Activation: Apply Activation behaviour as 
  inherited by the root class
<Klaus>             Note: After the IsRunningEvent all Presentables 
  which have the 
<Klaus>             InitiallyActive Attribute set to true are presented. 
  The content of other 
<Klaus>             Ingredients which have the initially Active 
  attribute set to true are available.
<JonPiesin> Sorry I've got to leave for now. Jon.
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<Klaus> ok. YD, we are alone...
<Klaus> that was too much!
<Y_Dewa> :)...
<Klaus> So, now we attack the setData and the ContentAvailable.
<Klaus> I will be AFK for a while.
<Y_Dewa> ok
<Klaus> But it ws nice to talk to you in Cyberspace!
<Y_Dewa> Icheck this result now.. 
<Klaus> Any chance to meet in Finnland in April?
<Y_Dewa> I think so too!
<Y_Dewa> yeah. I try to get to there
<Klaus> Fien.
<Klaus> Fine.
<Klaus> Well, I think we finish the IRC for now!
<Klaus> bye..., and good night!
<Y_Dewa> ok
<Y_Dewa> good night
<Y_Dewa> see you again in Finland!
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<msa> hmm.. you seem to have lost the channel op status.. 
   channel needs to be emptied to regain it..
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